Savage Lovecast Episode 1030

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_07] This episode is brought to you by Quince, high quality essential clothing at radically low prices. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash savage for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com slash savage.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_12] You're listening to the Savage Lovecast, Dan Savage's sex and relationship show for grownups. If you're under 18, get out of here, young'un.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_06] Or if you're looking for sexual harmony, I'm the Savage Lovecast.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_07] People don't get on social media to say nice things about airlines. We complain when things go wrong and generally keep our mouth shut when things go right. I had the kind of day at the airport last week people complain about online. Got to the airport in San Francisco, SFO, at 11 a.m. for a 1.30 p.m. flight. I don't like being on airplanes, but I do enjoy being in airports, so I go early. My flight on Delta was delayed until 2.30. That's not great.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_07] Then 3.30, then 4.30, then 11.30 p.m. And yeah, I didn't want to stick around until 11.30 at night only to find out my flight would get canceled, which seemed inevitable. Luckily enough for me, there was a hotel in the airport, a credit card in my wallet, and pot gummies in my bag. I could have complained. Online, I didn't. The pot gummies really did help. But I didn't say anything nice either, which maybe I should have.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_07] A few weeks ago, I was struck when this dude in New York City got on social media to thank the MTA, that is the agency that runs the New York City subway system, for all the great air conditioning. Dude rode three different trains to get to an appointment on a sweltering day in New York City, and the air conditioners on each and every one of the trains he rode on that day were working. And he posted basically, thanks, MTA, for the air conditioning. And when I read it, I thought, people should do that more.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_07] Not just complain when the airlines fuck us over, when a city agency lets us down, but say something nice when the city or the airline gets something right. So I'm going to say something nice right now about my flight last week. The Delta Gate agent who rebooked our flights for the next morning, really great. And a shout out to the baggage handlers at SFO. I was prepared to never see my bags again, but they arrived in Seattle with me. You did your jobs, baggage handlers. I see you. I appreciate you.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_07] And I want to thank, well, I'm thanking airlines, Alaska Airlines too. Not for a flight I was on personally, but on behalf of everyone, on Alaska Airlines flight 397 from Orlando to San Diego last week. Those poor, unfortunate souls found themselves on a plane with Whitney Lynn. She is an evangelical Christian who loves her words here. I am quoting her from her Instagram account.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_07] She loves preaching to a captive audience. She makes videos of herself preaching to people at the top of her lungs, on trains that have left stations, in elevators after the doors have closed, on buses between stops. But her specialty, her favorite place to preach, is to captive audiences on airplanes. Here's a taste of Whitney saving souls on a flight to San Diego on a different airline a few weeks back.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_10] You know, San Diego's known for the beautiful landscapes, right? And the perfect weather. But I want to tell you who is so perfect and so beautiful, better than anything in this life, is knowing Jesus Christ personally as Lord and Savior. He died on the cross for all your sins. He rose again in three days. He's alive. He's the one true God.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_10] But the wages of all our sin is death. Hell forever.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_07] Quick aside, evangelical Christians, you know how they love to accuse the gays of recruiting and then they do shit like this? Gays do not stand outside churches screaming, have you heard the good news of the risen dick at hot DL Christian dads heading into church on Sunday mornings with their families? And I'm sorry, but it is just so dumb and dishonest preaching the good news of the risen Lord to a captive audience of people who, this being America, have already heard the good news and already believe

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_07] or heard the good news and didn't fucking fall for it or walked away from it. It's such a ridiculous waste of everyone's time. Everyone in America has heard. Whitney started to preach on flight 397 while it was on the ground. There was a delay. The doors were still open and the crew wasn't having it. She was told to get her bags and follow the flight attendant to the door.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_11] Wow. Well, God bless everybody. If you know Jesus today, make him Lord of your lives and continue to spread the gospel. We're in the last days. We're being persecuted. Persecuted to be a Christian. It's coming. We're going to go to jail. It's coming. Wow.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_07] I don't know who the flight attendant was that kicked Whitney's ass off that airplane, but shout out to you, sir. Shout out to you, King. And I couldn't quite make out what you were saying to Whitney, but I think it went something like this.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_05] Get off my plane.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_07] That is, of course, President Harrison Ford throwing terrorist Gary Oldman off his plane in Air Force One at 30,000 feet. Now I'm going to get in front of this. I'm not advocating for throwing Whitney Lynn or other street preachers off planes that are in the air. Although it does seem like perhaps the most efficient way to return them to the street and to Jesus, but I'm not advocating for that. Whitney was kicked off that plane again while it was still on the ground. Best part of the story,

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_07] when Whitney complained to the airline about being persecuted because the crew on that flight wasn't having her bullshit, Alaska did not fire the flight attendants or the gate agents. The suits at corporate backed up the crew and banned Whitney Lynn from all three of their airlines, Alaska, Horizon, and Hawaiian. Hilariously, Lynn told the Christian Post that the airline issued her a credit for the flight she was kicked off of,

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_07] a credit that she cannot now use or redeem because she's been banned from their airline. She also told the Christian Post that she's going to lawyer up and possibly sue Alaska Airlines and she is going to keep preaching on flights. Delta, American, United, you know what you need to do. And Alaska, the next time we go to Hawaii, we are flying with you guys. All right, coming up on today's show, a caller's friend has a new girlfriend and the caller is happy for her friend, but that new girlfriend

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_07] has awful body odor and it seems intentional. Can anything be done about this? And we hear from a caller in Seattle who wanted to rise in defense of nude marchers like him at Seattle's Pride Parade. And on the Magnum Savage Lovecast, I speak with professor of clinical psychology, Dr. Eric Sprenkel, about whether the porn algorithms are really making people's desires more and more extreme. Again, that's on the Magnum. Subscribe to the Magnum to hear my interview with Dr. Sprenkel and all my other interviews

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_07] on the Magnum with other great guests. When you become a subscriber, you'll be supporting the show and getting more Lovecast, more Savage Love, and invites to Savage Love Live. And coming up on this week's After Action Report...

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00] I had backup. I was walking around these two beautiful bears on leashes and I felt great about that. And I felt like the envy of the whole con.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_07] On After Action Report, I interview every week listeners who've tried something new and it is so much fun. Fun for everyone, I hope. Fun for listeners, fun for me, and fun for the people that I get to talk to. And whether you're a micro subscriber or a Magnum subscriber, you get a new After Action Report in your feed every Friday. All right, let's get to it. Nancy, first call. This episode is brought to you by Forkful, seed, oil-free, chef-cooked meals delivered to your door. Go to forkfulmeals.com

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_07] and use code SAVAGE to get 50% off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep, the people who made my mattress and the people who are going to make your next mattress. Right now, my listeners get 20% off site-wide. Go to helixsleep.com slash savage now. This episode is brought to you by VB Health, doctor-formulated supplements that work. To learn more about Load Boost, Drive Boost, and Soaking Wet, and to get 10% off, visit vb.health

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_07] and use the code SAVAGE.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_09] Hey, Dan. I have a dear friend who has started dating someone that makes her super happy. I'm so happy for her. The person she dates is absolutely lovely, a delight. So all those things are great, right? The problem is, her partner has, the last several times we've hung out, had real bad, can smell it, sitting across the table from her body odor. And at first, both me and my girlfriend were like, well, of course, you won't say anything. That could be so rude. You know,

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_09] like, you know, what if it could be a disorder? You know, I'm not even going to touch it. But then, it came somehow up in texting with my pal that she has some kind of kink with bad body odor. Like, it was a whole thing that she like went to visit her mom and her mom commented, your girlfriend smells bad. And then, apparently, my friend and her girlfriend were like giggling about it. I don't want to yuck people's yum. I am all for people having their kinks. But this feels a little, like, annoying on two levels. One,

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_09] kind of a consent violation. Like, I'm not trying to be part of your smell gross kink. Do you? But maybe in the privacy of your home. And two, I get pretty, like, irritated by bad body odor. My girlfriend is more gracious than me. So, I guess I'm not sure how to proceed. We're making some plans to hang out with them again soon. This will be ongoing. So, this question shall be evergreen. For as long as I'm hanging with them, I guess. Is it appropriate to just say something to my friend? Like, hey,

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_09] buddy, could you make sure your girlfriend puts on deodorant? Like, love that you found someone you're into. Love that you have a thing going. But, ugh. You know? Yeah, I don't know. Or I don't know if that's rude. Like, what if she has a body odor disorder and then they're just making a kink out of it? You know what I mean? I'm not, I haven't asked a bunch of follow-up questions because we're good pals. But I don't know. I don't want to be an asshole.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_07] I don't want to yuck anybody else's yum either, but yuck. Body odor. Giant signs just went up at my gym here in Seattle ordering, begging members to use deodorant as a courtesy to other members. Just takes a few selfish fetishists and or people who don't realize how bad they smell to ruin things for everyone. And some stank-ass people have been kind of ruining the vibe for others.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_07] At the gym, it does seem selfish, an assault on the senses for someone to impose their body odor on others, whether it's a kink or not, a kink or a blind spot where their nostrils should be. But when you think about it for a second, you just step back and say, okay, so this person has a body odor kink. They like to stink or like to stank like the body odor fetish night at the club, the powerhouse in San Francisco is advertised

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_07] as stank. Some people like to stank, but other people don't want to smell you. An assault on the sense of smell, an imposition on other people's right not to have to participate in your kink by smelling you if you have a kink for liking people to fucking smell you. But then you think about somebody with a chain on a padlock locked around their neck, it's a collar, it signals something about kink, it goes into your eyes, you have to see that, you know things then,

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_07] you can infer things then about their sexual interests and the roles that they enjoy. Is that a similar sort of assault? I don't think so because it doesn't elicit a disgust response in the way somebody's horrifying body odor might or strong body odor might. You see somebody with a padlocked chain around their neck, you can think about that or not think about that. When you smell somebody

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_07] because they have terrible body odor and they have a fetish for terrible body odor and imposing that on others is part of the kink for them, yeah, you are being drafted into participating in their kink in a way that I don't think is analogous with the chain locked around somebody else's neck. So what do you do? Well, you can tell your friend, hey, look, you've implied to us that your girlfriend has a thing

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_07] for body odor that she enjoys smelling like this and that's great but we don't enjoy smelling her. So, when she's in our place she has to have been freshly showered and or that day used deodorant. if not, we will have to meet outside of our home in a well-ventilated place. We will be your friends that you go on picnics with and we sit upwind of your girlfriend

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_07] or dot, dot, dot, we see you on your own because we don't want to smell your girlfriend. I don't think it's too much to ask. It is a common courtesy. There are kinks that you can tell. You just know someone has this particular kink from the look of them but It's My Kink is not a get-out-of-common-courtesy free card. Somebody can have a thing for shit. They're not allowed to come to your house covered in feces

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_07] and reeking of shit. I think that's an extreme example but it exists in the continuum that takes us to coming to your house with terrible fucking body odor. You're allowed to draw a line. You're allowed to set a boundary and that boundary can be right under your nose. So, disinhibit. Clearly your friend and her girlfriend have disinhibited where body odor is concerned. I think you are allowed to meet

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_07] disinhibition with disinhibition and disinhibit around setting a boundary with them is concerned. You're allowed to say, hey, fine if you want to stink. You can't stink here.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02] Hi, Dan, Nancy, and the tech at-risk youth. I am a 24-year-old woman from the U.S. South and I'm calling for some advice for my friends. They've been in a monogamish relationship for the past two and a half years. One of them practices consensual non-monogamy and the other one is poly under duress. They've been long distance the entirety of their relationship and they are just now about to move in together

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02] where my one friend, the one who is non-monogamous, is worried that they will become monogamous under duress. I was wondering if you had any advice for them that I could send their way.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_07] Curious how your friend framed non-monogamy when they negotiated an open relationship with their long distance partner who will soon not be long distance, will be nearby partner, living with partner very soon. Did they frame it as, well, while we're in this long distance relationship, we should both be free to go get our sexual needs met elsewhere as a stopgap measure, as something that they could or should do to address the sexual deprivation

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_07] or intimacy hunger, skin touch hunger that was built into the long distance relationship. Because if they framed it that way, that was a mistake. Because what your friend may have said to get what they wanted was, this is temporary, this is a patch, this is a fix, until we can be together all the time. Which means your friend, again, if they framed it that way, has some walking back to do, has some radical honesty

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_07] to engage in. They need to tell their partner, they need to make sure that their partner knows that non-monogamy, openness, is a requirement, that it's a price of admission that they, the partner, will have to pay to be with your friend. And then your friend needs to stick to their guns about it. Right now your friend has all the time in the world, while their partner is away, to pursue relationships and sex with other people. They have

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_07] nights free and your friend, if they're going to be happy in this relationship, they're still going to need those free nights. They're going to need time to themselves, time away from their partner. And so it's about really setting the expectations of the formerly long-distance partner who's about to move to town to be with your friend. if they're expecting to be together seven nights a week, perfectly reasonable expectation in a relationship

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_07] where two people live together, but not a reasonable expectation of your friend because your friend is not monogamous, is polyamorous, wants an open relationship, wants the freedom to pursue others, won't be able to pursue them at the clip that you see. Your friend has to be considerate of their partner, may not have as much time for outside sex and other relationships as she's had in the past, but still needs a carve-out, her own

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_07] sense of sexual fulfillment, romantic fulfillment, to pursue those other relationships. It needs that carve-out from their partner, and their partner kind of has a right to know that that's going to be demanded of them after they get to town, or expected of them after they get to town. And if your friend can't over up and make those demands, really, then yeah, your friend may be sucked under, may wind up monogamous under duress because they didn't have

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_07] the conversations with their partner that they needed to have, or they had a half conversation where they minimized who it is they are and what it is they want out of this relationship in an effort to get it while they were long distance. But to have it still, when they are in the same apartment, in the same city, they're going to have to ask for it. The price of admission needs to be paid, but it can't be

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_07] paid if it's not posted. Someone needs to know what the price is. And if your friend can't tell them, yeah, your friend very well could wind up monogamous under duress or dumped. And that won't be fair. Like, if this relationship goes tits up because this person moved to town with the reasonable expectation, because that's the expectation that was set, that the relationship would close once they were no longer long distance,

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_07] that is a ticking time bomb that's going to blow it the fuck up. And that would be, you know, it would be unfair for your friend if she wound up monogamous under duress. It would be unfair to your friend's partner if they moved to town with the expectation that the relationship would close because that is what your friend led them to believe would be the case when they negotiated the open relationship in the first place. So, yeah, your friend has some

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_07] work to do here, some truths she needs to share with her partner, and ethically she needs to share this with her partner before that person moves to town, not after. This episode is sponsored by Forkful, our new favorite meal kit around here. Terry, my husband, he loves to cook and he is a great cook, but sometimes Terry needs a night off, sometimes he needs someone else to cook for him, and that someone, yeah,

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[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_03] Hi, Dan. I'm a bi woman in my late 30s. My husband and I have been together since college about 20 years now and we have been married for 13. years. We have two kids, 7 and 11. We lost our virginities to each other in college but I had two other boyfriends before him as well as several make-out partners of all genders in high school and college. I was his first kiss, relationship, etc. We've always had a great and fairly vanilla sex life. Over the years we've both grown together, gotten

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03] more skilled, more in tune with our needs. We are by far having way more fun now than we did in our 20s. However, I'm currently going through some medical things, something serious and these have led me to find out that my estrogen levels are extremely high. I'm fairly certain that as a result of this I've had a much higher libido than I have ever had before. I'm also pushing 40 and looking to mix things up a bit. I proposed the idea of bringing a special guest star into our lives which I figured would be

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_03] every straight guy's dream. He seemed kind of intuitive first but then he said it would just be so awkward set up. I suggested that I do the legwork and he just has to show up. He agreed. I went on field, started a few conversations. As we got closer to pulling the trigger I checked back in with him to make sure he was still on board and to confirm his guest star preferences. He reiterated that the whole thing seemed really awkward and he still seemed uncomfortable with it. I realized that he wasn't really that into it which was a turn off for

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03] me so I pulled the plug on the whole thing. A few weeks later we continued the conversation. I said that I totally understand that this is not for him and I don't want to pressure him into anything but I asked if he had any ideas for anything new or different that we could do to shake things up. There was some back and forth but ultimately he said that he was happy that the status quo and he's no reason to mess with things. He accused me of having a midlife crisis. He also seemed offended that I wanted to try something new thinking this meant that I wasn't

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_03] satisfied with him. He also made the point that we should focus on resolving. the non-sexual parts of our marriage first, the usual conflicts that come up after 13 years and two kids, and that intimacy will come once we're communicating better. I'm apparently putting the cart before the horse. But I'm also horny now and I'm a Sabbath love listener getting all sorts of inspiration from your after action reports. So I know that it's okay to prioritize sex sometimes and that solidifying that connection can sometimes help with the other stuff.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like I'm DZ but my husband's only DZ. He's good in giving but he's just not game. He's stubborn and stuck in his sexual ways. Are there magic words here? I'm frustrated and also finding it very difficult to conceptualize a straight guy who just wants to have the same vanilla sex once a week max with the same person for his entire life.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_07] So your husband says that maybe you can think about spicing things up after you've resolved all of the conflicts in your marriage. How is this not a conflict in your marriage, this dispute that you're in right now about your sex life? You are not entirely sexually satisfied. You want with him. You want to go on some sexual adventures with him, tossed out, finding a third. A lot of straight guys fantasize

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_07] all their lives about having a threesome with two women and that was your fantasy too, your go-to. Maybe he was just scared about the pace with which you were moving toward achieving this goal and it is a fantasy of his but he balked or it was clear that you were pushing him outside his comfort zone but to be pushed out of your comfort zone is not always a bad thing so I would encourage you to keep talking to me. about this and I don't know why you can't

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_07] move on both fronts at the same time. You say or you said, your husband said that there are conflicts in your marriage that have nothing to do with sex around communication or division of household labor or I don't know what that he would like to resolve and he thinks if you resolve those conflicts, if you work on those conflicts and when you work on conflicts in a marriage or a relationship, you really do have to carefully delineate between the resolvable conflicts conflicts and the irresolvable conflicts,

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_07] the stones that will always be in your fucking shoes, the shit about each other that will always drive you up a wall, resolve the resolvable conflicts, learn to step around the irresolvable ones. Those are prices of admission that you may have to pay to be in this relationship. Landmines you do not want to step on. People waste a lot of time in what could be good, loving, low-ish conflict relationships endlessly hammering away at what

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_07] would be, if they looked squarely at it, the irresolvable conflict that you have to just learn to fucking live with. And I think that inability to learn to fucking live with some shit is destructive, drives wedges into perfectly decent relationships. You won't get everything that you want, emotionally, sexually, socially, out of any one relationship with another human being. And one of the things you do not get is to a state of, I don't know,

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_07] relationship nirvana where there are no conflicts, there will always be little conflicts that blow up all the time. But work on the ones that you can work on. But add to the list of the conflicts that you are going to work on, maybe with the help of a couples counselor, a sex positive couples counselor, this. You have a higher libido than your husband. You would like to be having more sex with your husband. You've never suggested lighting out on your own.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_07] And that is one of the conflicts you want to work on. I don't want to pour poison in your ear, but when people say, oh, I don't think we can have these sexual adventures or I can't grow with you sexually until we resolve the conflicts in our relationship, that could be the truth. He may feel unsafe or disrespected. There could be something going on that is a libido killer for him right now, that if resolved, if you worked on it, would result in your husband being

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_07] more receptive to meeting your needs, being gamer. But sometimes people latch on to, oh, there's this thing or that thing or always another thing that we need to work on and resolve before I will feel comfortable enough to entertain. any suggestion about shaking up or altering or growing our sex life. And then it's just an excuse because he's getting everything he wants, perhaps, out of your sex life.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_07] And so what's in it for him to shake it up? What's in it for him to expand the menu if he's perfectly satisfied? And what's in it for him is you being more satisfied. That has to be his job too. And if the sex that you're having right now meets all of his needs and not all or many or enough of yours, he needs to step up.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_07] You need to make a demand. And that needs to be on the list of the conflicts that you two are going to work on resolving, maybe third or fourth on the list when you go see that couple's counselor together. Hey, big spender. Why not pull out all the stops this year and give the best gift ever? A gift they won't see coming, but will see themselves coming on. Get that special person in your life. A Helix Sleep Mattress. That's what I did for all the special people

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[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_05] Hi, Dan. This is one of the co-leads with Friends of Denny Blaine in Seattle, and I saw a comment that you shared on Instagram from someone who was upset that our group marched nude at Pride, and I wanted to tell you what that moment meant to me as someone who marched at Naked. I marched with the Friends of Denny Blaine because less than a year ago, Denny Blaine became the first LGBT historic site on the Washington State Registrar,

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_05] and that's a really big deal. It means that the state recognized our history. You know, for 40 years we've been here, and there aren't many places that people can just exist and be queer without hiding. And I think one thing that people forget is that queer history isn't about bars or clubs. It's also about public spaces where anyone can just go to be and exist and enjoy the sun, whether they have money or not.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_05] Places where people don't have the pay to find community or feel accepted. So Pride has always been about rejecting shame. For some people that means holding a hand. For some people it means living openly as trans. And for others it means body freedom. And none of those things are sexual. So we weren't marching because we wanted attention. We were marching because the history had been recognized and Pride is the right place to do that. And we aren't asking for people to be naked.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_05] We are asking people to recognize that everybody deserves dignity. And no one should have to hide who they are to belong.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_07] I know my comments about nude people at Pride did upset a few people, which is why I played your call, which wasn't really a question, just a statement, why you marched nude in Pride. And hear you, support you. Thing is, when you go to a nude beach, you know that you're going to see nude people. There's a nude area in a public park in Amsterdam and there are signs that

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_07] say nude people, you're going to see them if you keep going down this trail. And they're not doing anything wrong. And if you want to go sit at this part of the beach, you're signing up for that. And I just don't think at a big public event that people are necessarily signing up to see nude people, which isn't necessarily, like you said, a sexual thing for the person who is nude. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe this is a hangup of mine. I'm not comfortable with my own nudity. And maybe I project myself

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_07] into that moment walking naked down the street, which would make me want to die. And I don't think that you did anything wrong. And there's so much debate really in advance of Pride about the kinky people, the fetishists, the people in pup masks, the people who are nude at Pride, that maybe that all constitutes essentially a sign. That sign outside the nude beach in a public park in Amsterdam that lets you know that if you go here, you might see nude people.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_07] And if you have a problem with that, maybe don't go here. There's enough debate about nude people at Pride, people marching naked at Pride, that everybody knows you might see a dick or a pussy or two at Pride. And so maybe if you're not, if you don't have the constitution where you can absorb seeing a non-erect penis, maybe don't go to Pride. And if you're at Pride and there's something you don't want to look at, there's lots of other things to look at. So I support that you march nude at Pride.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_07] I guess I just understand why some people feel imposed upon by that. And maybe I'm just trapped in this endless loop of holding these two conflicting ideas in my head at the same time. Which, yeah, celebrate the body. And bodies are natural and bodies are not in their natural state, in an unclothed state, necessarily sexual. And if you can't look at a body without sexualizing it, maybe that's on you. And therefore maybe you

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_07] shouldn't go to Pride. On the other hand, yeah, like, I understand why somebody with little kids might not want, might want to take those kids to Pride, but might not want them to see naked marchers at Pride. And so maybe that person shouldn't take their fucking kids to Pride. Because they're going to be naked people at Pride. There was one thing I did want to challenge you on, though. You said there aren't many places queer people can exist without hiding. And that hasn't been my experience of Seattle over the

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_07] last 30 years. One of the things I really do like about Seattle is I've never been really anywhere in Seattle where I didn't feel comfortable being gay, being queer, and being identifiable publicly as gay and queer. Which does not mean I've never encountered, you know, never gotten a dirty look, never faggot yelled at me in Seattle 30 years ago once. But it feels like a place where you can exist without hiding

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_07] and exist in most of those places with your clothes on, with the exception of Denny Blaine. I was running around Seattle recently with friends and we saw lesbians, dykes, holding hands at the waterfront, which was crowded with people. We went to Alki Beach. We saw a gay couple walking down the beach holding hands at Alki Beach, which is a pretty straight-ish place. Volunteer Park, of course, is always full of gay people, queer people, clearly trans

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_07] people and genderqueer people. It does feel like in Seattle queer people can exist everywhere without having to hide. In most of those places, though, yeah, queer people will have to put their pants on. But I recognize, as you said, the significance of Denny Blaine Park and the historic link between places where people can be publicly queer, out, and naked, and why those places and

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_07] spaces are important. I do think when people want to be publicly nude that part of living in a society is recognizing other people's rights, sensitivities, preferences, and being naked at Denny Blaine is one thing. Being naked maybe at the Pride parade is another thing, a similar thing, because people know that they might see naked people at Pride. Walking down Broadway or up Pike Pine or along the waterfront

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_07] naked, I think that would be, although legal in Seattle, public nudity, as long as you're not sexual, is legal in Seattle, I do think it is a little inconsiderate. But that's just me. And I guess I'm a closet Republican when it comes to this. This episode is brought to you by Load Boost by VB Health. This is going to be a TMI ad read. Come, semen. I am a fan. Not an acquired taste either.

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[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_08] Hey, Dan. Late 40s bi lady here. My partner and I are going to Greece in a couple months and I have read that prostitution is legal there and we wanted to hire a sex worker. However, we want to be ethical about this and try to ensure that this person has not been sex trafficked. And we are just trying to figure out how to do this in the best way.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_08] So looking for some advice from you or your listeners on hiring someone

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_07] that we can feel ethically good about. Prostitution is legal in Greece, but only prostitution in officially recognized licensed brothels. Now, brothels in Greece can't be within 200 yards or something of school, a church, a cultural site, which means most of the brothels in Greece, the legal ones are outside of tourist zones and in industrial zones. If you want to avoid hiring someone who has been trafficked,

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_07] you're going to need to go to one of those brothels. You're not going to be able to hire someone to come to your hotel room. Sex has to happen at the brothel. Tiny minorities, something like one in 20 or 50 or 100 of the sex workers working in Greece work in the brothels where they have to register with the police. The brothel has to be licensed. They have to test regularly. They have a card that's updated every two weeks just from my cursory reading about legal prostitution in Greece.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_07] So what you guys are fantasizing about is a kind of experience in your hotel room where a sex worker comes and is in your space. You're not going to be able to make that happen legally. In Greece. And you are much less likely to encounter, if you do it legally in Greece, the person that you're worried about encountering. You're much less likely to be implicated in trafficking or to wind up with a woman or sex worker who has been trafficked.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_07] So, yeah. I'm not sure Greece is the best place to arrange this sort of thing for yourself. My general advice when you want to hire a sex worker and you want to make sure that person is doing sex work of their own free will is to get online. There are a lot of sex workers online. There is a website where people can hire sex workers. Everyone's always recommending Trist to me. But when it comes up, I should mention Trist, which is the website where sex workers advertise

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_07] and people can find sex workers. I'm not vouching for it. I have no experience of it. I haven't talked to any sex workers who've used Trist. If you're a sex worker and a listener and you have thoughts about Trist, please call into the show. Share your thoughts about Trist. But my general advice, if you want to find a sex worker, is to get online. A lot of sex workers maintain social media profiles where you can get a sense of their attitude toward their clients, their attitude toward their work,

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_07] and whether they're independent or not. And yeah, somebody could be faking that, faking being independent and have been trafficked on social media. But I think if you turn on your bullshit detectors and you get a general feel for someone, you're better able to screen for whether someone's doing it under that kind of duress. Now, there's a lot of people who are trafficked sort of, kind of, but not in the way we use trafficked. Traffic by circumstance,

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_07] where they're doing sex work under economic duress and it is hopefully temporary for them, but it is not bringing a lot of joy into their lives. And you can, if you get online and you interact with a sex worker social media, you can get a sense for whether that person is being made miserable by this. Now, of course, somebody who's doing sex work under duress still needs the fucking money. But you can get a general sense, a better sense,

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_07] as to whether somebody is doing sex work because they love it and those people are out there or doing it because they have no other choice. But to hire that kind of person, you kind of got to hire local. I mean, if you know you're going to visit a big city in six months or so, you can slide into somebody's DMs, you can follow them on social media, get an impression about the kind of sex worker they are and the kind of sex work that they do and then make an appointment

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_07] when you come to town in advance. But I don't think you can be able to do that kind of legwork, that kind of advance work for yourselves visiting Greece. My recommendation, if you and your partner want to have an adventure, want to go someplace, hire a sex worker, yeah, don't go to Southern Europe. Go local. Do this, if not in the city where you live, if that makes you uncomfortable, do it in a city that you and your partner can visit that's big enough to have community of sex workers

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_07] and is close enough by that you can do the kind of legwork I recommend if you really, your first priority is to avoid someone who is being trafficked by monsters or trafficked by circumstance. Time for listener feedback. First up, a few of the written comments listeners left about last week's show at savage.love. says Tall Canadian, I loved the interview with Barney Muckle, the clown sex fetishist whose podcast, The Big Tent,

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_07] focuses on normalizing niche kinks. He seems like a fun guy, Tall Canadian goes on, and a good communicator, making him a great ambassador for his kink. And while I respect and honor his sexuality, for me, the idea of clown sex is creepy nightmare fuel. And Alder has some good news for Barney. In Portland, Oregon, clown fetish is becoming borderline not niche. How do the kids say it? Low key, not niche? If the numbers of mostly young, mostly femme presenting people with clown makeup at Pride this year

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_07] is any indication. My adult child's friend came with us and wore clown makeup and was getting a steady stream of compliments all day, even more than I was getting for my wizard hat. Clown makeup and wizard hats at Pride, better or worse than assless chaps and pup masks at Pride? Discuss in the comments. And finally, says Sarah-esque, I got whiplash between Dan's shockingly inconsiderate advice for the surfer and then his absolutely wonderful advice for the next caller

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_07] with the bye boyfriend. And I wonder if Dan and I mean the same thing when we say fight. My husband and I have been together for seven years and we've had one fight. Hated it. Can't recommend. Sarah and a couple of other commenters who say they never fight with their partners or only fought once like Sarah then go on to describe yeah, things I might describe as fights. And there's a lot of debate in the comments about my advice for surfer boy per Sarah. If you think I got that one wrong,

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_07] dive into the comments and let me have it. All right, as ever, if you've got something to say about something I said, jump into the comment threads at savage.love and say it or give us a call at 206-302-2064 or send us a voicemail at q at savage.love if you want to say it on the show. And now, this week, like every week, Savage Love listeners who called in with comments about last week's show get to have the last word on this week's show.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_13] Hello, I have a response to the surfer in the loving relationship that has no fighting. You referred to the no fighting part as a red flag and I just wanted to point out that not fighting is not a red flag. I was in a relationship wrought with fighting for nearly 30 years and I'm now in a relationship of eight years where we've never had a fight. The difference is that there is no power dynamic involved. We both respect each other, value each other's differing opinions

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_13] and encourage open and honest conversation. A conversation about a difficult topic can still be a mature conversation and refrain from being a fight when there's no power play. By the way, and interestingly enough, there's plenty of power play in the bedroom.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_04] Hey Dan, in response to the caller last week with a question about sounding, I too am an intersex man that was born with a hypospadius and I too underwent a non-consensual surgery at eight months in my case to have that variation erased basically and to push me into this male binary box and I too have suffered the neglect of the medical community and resulted in you know, sort of a lifelong physical pain for sure and mental struggles absolutely. So I really, really get

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_04] where this caller is coming from and their desire to find pleasure with the penis. I mean, we know that these hypospadius surgeries that aren't medically necessary in most if not all cases can reduce sexual sensation due to scar tissue that is on the penis so I get why they are looking to explore that and I really completely support it. The only thing I guess I wanted to add is that I heard from the caller it felt like a lot of resentment and anger which is completely

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_04] understandable towards the medical community for what happened and the way he feels he's been treated throughout his life and I just wanted to caution that this caller is seeking, their motivation is to seek pleasure and their motivation is not to seek to prove that they are right.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01] Hi Dan, this is a response for the girl that has my boyfriend making hot threesomes. Wow, this is amazing. I get it. You had a difficult time seeing your boyfriend getting fucked but Dan totally nailed it. I mean, wow, this is my purest fantasy as a bi boy I will surely want to get fucked by a boy just in front

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01] of my girlfriend. Amazing.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_07] And we are going to leave it there. Got a question for me? Got a comment for us? Go to savage.love slash ask Dan to record and upload your question or your comment or email us a voice memo at q at savage.love or call us at 206-302-2064. We are currently gathering questions for our next quickie show. If you've got a quick question for me, now is the time to call in with it. And if you tried something new and you want to tell me all about it, email us at q at savage.love Let us know what you tried and you might

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_07] be my next guest on After Action Report. Hump, the official fall 2026 trailer is out now. Watch it right now at humpfilmfest.com and find a city near you. Get tickets so you can experience the world's best dirty little film festival in a theater like God intended. Follow me on bluesky at dan savage. Follow me on Instagram at dan savage. Follow Dr. Eric Sprankle on Instagram at drsprankle. Learn more about his work and get his really great book DIY, The Wonderfully Weird

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_07] History and Science of Masturbation at his website drsprankle.com. The Savage Lovecast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and me and Nancy and the tech savvy at rescue. We'll all be back at you next week with another installment of the Savage Lovecast. Thank you for downloading.