After Action Report #45

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] The Strangers Genius Awards are back, celebrating Seattle's art and culture community with an awards show and cash prizes. Hosted by Miss Texas 1988 and Lady Gugu, Shabazz Palace's headlines with DJ sets by Eric Blood and La Mala Noche, Saturday, September 12th at the Moore Theatre, tickets start at $10 and are on sale now at strangergeniusawards.com. You're listening to After Action Report at savage.com.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01] After Action Report. Welcome to After Action Report, where my listeners share stories of their first time. Today, meet Kat, whose new business venture made her friends and family look at her a little differently. Kat, welcome to the show.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks, Dad. Nice to be here.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01] It's great to have you. Before we get to the new thing that you did or are doing or your new endeavor, tell us about who you are. Who's Kat?

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02] Well, my name is Kat. I live in the big liberal Canadian city of Montréal. I'm in a blissfully stable and uneventful long-term relationship with my best friend. Together, we have two young adult children. That's who I am.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01] Montreal, for those of us in North America who didn't follow the French pronunciation. Wonderful city full of—I mean, I've never been, but the reputation among the gays is it's just crawling with hot, uncut francophiles. Or francophones, not files. Francophones.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02] Francophones. I don't know about the uncut part, but yeah, that's quite possible. And it is. It's a big, fun, you know, very gay-friendly city. Yeah.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01] Okay, so what is it that you did? What's the new thing you tried you wanted to tell AAR listeners about?

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I came out as kinky. So to pretty much everyone who knows me, I sort of forced myself out of the closet to a certain extent when I started a business in the kink space. And it made sort of being private about that side of my identity sort of nearly impossible.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01] Okay, but before we get into the details, and you can mention the business, what were your kinks? And how long have you had them? I have this theory that boys, people assigned male at birth, kind of know what their kinks are at like 14. They're already jacking off about it at 14. But a lot of women assigned female birth at person seem to arrive at their kinks later in life. Do you track with that or are you an exception to that rule of mine?

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02] I think I do track to a certain extent. I think I've always kind of known that they were there and there were glimpses. I didn't start exploring them, I think, until a little bit later in life, like perhaps mid-30s, early 40s. I'm dating myself a little bit here. What are they? I'm not here to talk about mid-kinks. I'm talking about the fact that I am kinky.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01] So just generally, so the business that you started that outed you as kinky or put you in a kink space, it gives you some like cover. It's like is a broad kink business.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02] It is a broad kink, yeah.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01] And so the fact that you're kinky is reflected in the fact that you went into this, but it doesn't necessarily out you as being specifically one kink or another. You still have room for a private life.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02] Room for a private life. And the business doesn't involve my sex life per se, my kinky life per se, but people make assumptions and those assumptions are probably right.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01] Those are my favorite kind of assumptions. Like people in queer land and sex land are just like never make assumptions. And I'm like, we're an assumption making species. If an assumption is made non-maliciously and a person is willing to like drop it if you correct them, I just don't think you can fault a person for that.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01] Most people are straight. I'm not straight. I still in the fourth decade of my out gay life will sometimes be assumed to be straight by people who don't know me or in a new place. And I don't go to pieces. I'm like, yeah, most men are straight. And so it's a reasonable assumption. Okay. So what's the business? What is the business that you started? And why did it require you to come out personally as kinky to friends and family as opposed to just like, hey, like I thought there was money to be made here.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01] I'm really not into fried chicken, but I'm opening a fried chicken franchise. Like why did you have to own your kink to start this particular business?

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I sort of had to own that I knew about kink. When I first started exploring kink and my kind of initial enthusiasm, I ended up with like a bunch of like, you know, cheap gear I didn't really know how to use that like ended up at the bottom of a drawer. And so that's what my business sort of answers. It's called Good Ember and we make kits essentially for people who want to experiment with different kink practices like bondage or impact play. And, you know, they include gear and like instructions and all that stuff.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02] So essentially, in order to kind of make these kits, I sort of need to come from a position of, you know, knowledge and experience to a certain extent.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01] Especially if what you're selling are, this is quality stuff that won't end up in the bottom of a drawer, which was your experience with kink gear at the outset.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I mean, you don't really know when you're first starting, you know, you don't really know what, you know, what's going to work. So you try a bunch of like stuff and, you know, eventually you're going to go, okay, there's a reason why you use leather cuffs and not metal cuffs because those things hurt, you know?

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, metal hurts. I've always said to people who are curious about bondage and I'm like, you know, silk ties can be hard to get off. Rope can really cut if you don't know what you're doing. If you want to take a rope class, shibari class, go for it. But handcuffs are awful and they're kind of a lot of people's go-to is like, it's not too kinky. And I'll say like, invest in some quality leather restraints. People are like, oh no, that's too, I'm not that perverted.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01] But man, it looks more extreme, but it's safer and easier to use than handcuffs. And you're not going to lose a key if it's a belt that you're buckling.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. And, you know, I am that perverted. So like I said, you know, I did go that route. I ended up designing all of my own gear and sort of, you know, having it made because I wanted people to have like a good experience.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01] I've also observed that when it comes to those first purchases of gear and a person's, okay, I'm kinky, I want some gear. I think there's some kink shame, some ambient subconscious kink shame that prompts people not to spend too much money. They're like, okay, I'm kinky and I'm looking at the gear and like, here's this really expensive gear that looks quality. But I'm not so perverted I'm going to spend a mortgage payment on restraint. So I'm going to buy this cheap shit that falls apart that I'm going to have to replace.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01] And ultimately, in the end, if I keep replacing it, I'm going to spend more than if I just went all in and got some good stuff. But I see this all the time where people get their first gear and they get crap because there's something implicating about writing a big check or running up a big charge on your credit card for good stuff. Was that what you were going through when you got your first gear and it was crap?

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, of course. That and I didn't really know what I liked and what I didn't like, you know, so I was kind of like trying things. And I think most people that come to my business are kind of there. They've experimented a little. They know that they're like, oh, okay, this is fun. I like this. I want to build up like a collection of good stuff. And yet I want to maybe try new things too. And so that's kind of where the idea came from is to try to take a lot of that guesswork out of people.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01] And you say that opening the business required you to come out as kinky. Who was the most awkward conversation with?

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my mom, for sure. You know, I have boomer parents, you know. She was also the most surprising. How so? She was thrilled about it. She was just like, this is so great. You know, she thought I think it was sex toys at first, you know, things like that. But, you know, I went into detail a little bit with her. I showed her some of the gear. She even now helps me pack some boxes sometimes. She told all her friends about it. Her friends ordered some stuff for their kids at Christmas presents.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02] So I did get a few phone calls. Wait, wait.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01] Okay, there I draw the line. I don't want my mom buying me even quality gear for Christmas.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I have kind of discovery boxes. I have some more extreme stuff, but I have some very beginner stuff, you know, like a massage candle and a pair of handcuffs. There's nothing extreme. So I did get some orders from her friends that Christmas for their kids. I would feel a little awkward knowing that they might have unpacked this under the Christmas tree, you know, in front of everybody.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01] In front of the nieces and nephews.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, exactly. But they all came out of the woodwork. All the boomers very interested, surprisingly open. Yeah.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01] Boomers and Gen X, man, we're worried about millennials, young millennials and Gen Z not having sex, not making sexual connections, existing only in online sex spaces and everything being fantasy. So I could see a boomer parent being like to their millennial, young millennial kid or even their Gen Z kid if they had kids really later in life or their Gen X parents likely to have Gen Z kids being like, you know, you should step away from the laptop.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01] Get off the device every once in a while. Peel yourself off a screen and live a little. I could see a Gen X parent maybe buying a sex toy kit for a Gen Z kid.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02] Well, we have two of those. We have a 21-year-old and a 19-year-old. I'm just getting to the stage where I'm thinking of telling them they should be listening to your show.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, my God. So I think they're old enough now. Yes, please. I think they are old enough. When I hear from people who said I started listening when I was 12, I'm like, no, I want to get into Time Machine and put them back on Blue's Clues or whatever. Or Miss Rachel. No, not 12. But 19? Yes, absolutely. They should be listening to Lovecast.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And you know what? They were both really open to it. You know, my son calls it mom's sex box. He thinks it's hilarious. And we have a 21-year-old non-binary who's also, you know, very, you know, very interested in it, very, like, curious about it. It also, I think, explained to them why when they first started wearing, like, a collar around their neck as, like, a fashion accessory. You know, both my partner were like, you know what this, like, means in certain circles. You know, we had a little bit of a chat.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02] But it's not necessarily just a fashion accessory in certain circles. And here is how we know this.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01] People are going to make assumptions. We're back to assumptions. People will see that and assume things. Are you comfortable with that assumption, whether it's true? If it's not true, then you can wear that collar. But if you're not, you might not want to.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. So it did, you know, prompt some, like, interesting conversations. And I think the thing that I wasn't sort of planning on, and we did, you know, have a lot of discussions with my partner who works in a very corporate job, is, like it or not, you know, when your partner is in a, you know, in a kinky business, people are going to make assumptions about him. You know, so that was an interesting sort of thing, too.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02] You know, somebody once said to him, like, it's in French, so you might not understand, but you look, Tana is like a little bit of a troublemaker, you know. So I think, you know, I think people are sort of wise to it to a certain extent. It hasn't been super awkward. But, you know, we do get a few like, ah, like, you know, what are you guys up to kind of, you know, at dinner parties. It's made us very popular at dinner parties. But certainly, you know, in his workspace, people are sometimes curious. You told on your partner.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01] I go on other people's sex podcasts and they want to, they ask me, like, my favorite things, what I like to do to get into detail about my sex life. And I'm always like, I can, I'm comfortable telling on myself, but this would also be telling on my husband and telling on my boyfriend. And they haven't consented to me telling on them in this way. So I have to play those cards close to the chest. So I always ask people when I'm coming and talking about the new thing they did, advice for people who are curious about that thing. I don't think a lot of people are going to start a kinky sex business.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01] But there are people out there who might be in a position where they're thinking circumstance or they do want to start wearing a collar. They are in a DS relationship. And it might mean coming out as kinky to their adult children, to their parents, to siblings, to coworkers. Do you have advice for people in that position?

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I was certainly nervous about it for a long time. Yeah. Like I started this business very sort of a little bit in slow motion and backwards because I knew I wanted to do it, but I just wasn't sure about the any repercussions that might sort of, you know, or any discussions I might have to have with people. I have been personally like blessed to be incredibly like, you know, it's been very welcome, certainly with like nearly everybody in my circle.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02] It's made a couple of people uncomfortable where they just don't want to talk about it, you know, and like if that's the worst that's going to happen, that's fine. Exactly. And I'm not going out like talking about kink with everybody I meet, you know, and I find most people, they will start the discussion before I do. So that's been interesting. So, yeah, I don't know. I was again, I live in a, you know, a big liberal city with like quite liberal circles, you know, and people are pretty, pretty forward thinking. So everybody's been pretty open to it, you know, we're Latin people here in Quebec.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, honestly, it's been, I've been really surprised at how welcoming of the conversation most people have been and how excited everybody is about it.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01] I was going to jump in and say individual results may vary. You live in Montreal. In Canada, our much abused next door neighbor lately by this administration. But it's a, it's a liberal progressive place. Montreal is a very sexually progressive place. Interestingly, a very Catholic place. Historically. Historically. And very sexually progressive. And I think those things sometimes, especially around kink, I think there's a link. I think there's a positive correlation.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01] So somebody who's thinking about coming out as kinky, who's like lives in a rural community in Utah, you might have a different experience coming out as kinky than Kat has had coming out as kinky to friends and colleagues in Montreal.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02] I've also found that you don't need to get into specifics with people, you know. I think you can signal kind of an openness to, you know, to kink play without necessarily saying like, these are my specific fetishes and kinks. People will sometimes ask, but you don't always have to answer if you're not comfortable.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01] Kat, thank you so much for coming on After Action Report. One more time. What was the name of the business? People, some people might want to look you up.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. Thank you so much. It's called Good Ember. E-M-B-E-R.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01] Ember. Thank you, Kat. That was really a great conversation. And congratulations on the business and not getting the business. You didn't get the business from friends and family. They've been supportive. And that's great to hear.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you so much. It was great to meet you.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you, Kat. Your store looks great. Everybody go check it out. And this reminds me, I really do need to visit Montreal. I have never been. All right. If you have a tale that you want to tell my listeners something you just tried, something you want to unload on me about, write it up. Send it to us at q at savage.love. And you might be my next guest on After Action Report.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02] After Action Report.